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Post by Gareth on Jan 22, 2011 17:37:41 GMT
yeah Dave I'll have a read; Garethbowler@hotmail.co.uk
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Post by Dave on Jan 22, 2011 20:48:32 GMT
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Post by Bill Edwards on Jan 23, 2011 11:22:14 GMT
It's great to forum members collaborating on projects. Warms the cockles so it does it does. I do have to agree with Gareth's and Jill's comments. Gareth pretty much nailed it for me so I won't go on. But you have solicited feedback from forum members so here's mine. It's just my teeny tiny opinion and I'm certainly not speaking as a knowledgeable expert on any of this. It's all just gut feeling and instinct. Contains SPOILERS! The film is sweet and charming and the two leads have a nice chemistry. Much of their dialogue was believable too. I loved the 'Pony. Princess.' line. Made me go "HA!' quite loudly. Despite Dave's assertions that, 'this film has been honed to the most lean state possible'. To me it's anything but. I can see were a lot can be chopped out and speeded up. The warranty inter-titles are a great idea but they're too slow. They need to be twice or three times as fast. The second birthday scene could be cut down too. Within seconds I knew what's going on here and I got the point that Baz was disappointed. There are a few jump-cuts in this scene, or whatever they're called – inter-cutting? – there could've been more. The bit were Baz puts his hat on, again, could've been cut right down. The first 'hallucination' was very effectively done and really did give me chills. Loved the conversation about fave trees too. Very funny. I also liked the way NOKI pronounced Barbara. The scene where Barb is listening at the door could've been cut down more and I feel we ought to have stayed with Barb more during that moment. Cutting back to something that we've already seen is, I think, quite a big mistake in a very short film. Although you're sticking by your principles, Ryd, of having an ambiguous ending, there was something about the way proceedings were heading that seemed to indicate that a pay-off was on it's way. When nothing really happened I just felt a bit disappointed. I think that if you want to have an ambiguous ending then maybe you need to set up three or four possible outcomes for the audience to ponder on? Dave's right that writing satisfying endings is quite hard. I really struggle with writing endings for my animation ideas but I refuse to proceed further with an idea if it doesn't have an conclusion that I find completely satisfying. Oh dear I'm going on when I said I wouldn't. The end credit sequence was too long too. Again, a good idea but much too much for a short short film. Will viewers watch that to the end? Will you miss out on counted views if the viewer doesn't watch to the end? At the moment you're relatively unknown film makers choosing the internet and underground film festivals to publish your films. With that in mind I think you really need to be shorter and sharper. You need to be like Ninja. In. Out. No messing. Well, depends what you want really. Obviously stick to your principles and do it your way. If you ask me though, and you kind of have, your films have to be much shorter and really have proper beginnings, middles and ends. Especially the ends. They generally need the most work because a lot of the time that's what viewers will base their opinion of the film they've just watched and give them reason to send the link to their friends and say, 'watch this. It's cool'. Sorry for the criticisms. Remember, they're just my thoughts and not at all indicative of great insight or truth of any kind. Oh my God I've really gone on! Less is more? You betcha...  |
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Post by jill on Jan 23, 2011 12:05:30 GMT
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Post by Dave on Jan 23, 2011 16:07:25 GMT
You can post it... although I've just seen your PM comments anyway. It's all very interesting stuff hearing about what people made of it and the areas in which it is in need of improvement. There's no way that we're going to change any of it again. It's finished and is out there for all to see. For me it's a weird one because I was kind of a hired hand! haha. It's not the kind of idea I would have ever developed on my own (there's no Weston-super-Mare in it for starters!), so I was trying to write something that I thought fulfilled Ryd's original idea. It's funny you mentioned the 'honed' comment. It mostly comes from the fact that we had a longer version, and we thought that there was nothing we could remove... but we managed to lose a few minutes. It is odd, because when you're so involved with it, you start thinking that every tiny detail has some strong bearing on the telling of the story, but in the end, you overlook that you have multiple details explaining the same thing, and such like... can't see the wood for the trees! Having said that, I find the slowness of Baz putting the hat on when he's not in the mood to be funny. ;D I think Ryd wanted to shorten the end credits, but I just enjoyed the glitch-pop music, so wanted it to stay long! haha My fault! |
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Post by RydCook on Jan 23, 2011 16:44:23 GMT
Please post, I would like to read too! Thanks for your feedback Chrome! More the better  Dave's covered some of the points. I wanted to have shorter inter-titles too at some stage. But I think the way we did the edit made it really tough, sound overlapping them and all. I totally agree on that one. I worry about the credits at the end being very annoying. And too long. But Dave loves it. I'd have to cut the "song" down as well, in the middle, because I love the beginning and end. Wouldn't really wanna do that! I agree the end should have more to it, there should be hints in the film as to what could happen, certainly would love to have the audience have a lot of food for thought after the film. I don't think the ending fully achieves this. will post more later.... |
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Post by jill on Jan 23, 2011 17:28:03 GMT
Please post, I would like to read too! O.K. Here's a few comments. I'm working today (  ), so I read it through just the once. Hope it's helpful. I quite liked the script Dave. It probably would have benefitted from another draft-sharpen it up a bit- if time had allowed. A couple of suggestions: I liked this ending better. In truth, I might have let out a small groan, but that's alright if you've already rewarded the viewer with some laughs along the way to that point. To add credibility to Barbs anxiety dream and subsequent action, I think you maybe needed a line in there somewhere suggesting why she might have seen this coming. Something surreal or just daft like, 'It's happened before hasn't it? Remember when I bought you that ex-arcade pin ball machine and you took it to Tenerife with us?' After Barbs has referred to Noki as 'it' once, I'd then have Barbs always refer to Noki as 'her' or just 'Noki', to suggest jealously as well as annoyance more strongly ('her' is more resentful). There are few places where I'd personally trim the dialogue a bit-one or two bits of unnecessary exposition and/or telling what we already know. So, for example, instead of: I’ve had enough of you and this bleedin’ laptop! You’re never away from the thing for more than 5 minutes these days! What’s happened to US? We barely even talk to each other any more... let alone anything else. Just: What’s happened to US? We barely even talk to each other any more... let alone anything else. |
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Post by RydCook on Jan 23, 2011 19:26:18 GMT
At the moment you're relatively unknown film makers choosing the internet and underground film festivals to publish your films. With that in mind I think you really need to be shorter and sharper. You need to be like Ninja. In. Out. No messing. Well, depends what you want really. Obviously stick to your principles and do it your way. If you ask me though, and you kind of have, your films have to be much shorter and really have proper beginnings, middles and ends. Especially the ends. They generally need the most work because a lot of the time that's what viewers will base their opinion of the film they've just watched and give them reason to send the link to their friends and say, 'watch this. It's cool'. Sorry for the criticisms. Remember, they're just my thoughts and not at all indicative of great insight or truth of any kind. Oh my God I've really gone on! Less is more? You betcha... Endings: I have to say, it's my own personal taste, but twist ends really annoy me. Not all, some are superb, and staggering if they're done correctly. DMS, Preteige. But it's when a film (and this applies to short film A LOT) has a twist at the end, and that instantly makes it a good film, that's when it bugs me. Good twist=good film. I disagree, I saw a film at a festival; awful performances, rubbish story, big unforseen twist - everybody loved it. It won an award. I watched it, and I hated it. All I saw in my mind was a director looking all smart, and smarmy "yeah, I thought of that twist" Weldone. It's not the kind of short film I like to see, and thus not the type of short film I like to make. So I prefer, like Jill mentions earlier, poignant endings. What I was aiming for wth Noki, was to make a film with realistic performances, with an element of fantasy, and that has an ending which is realistic, and poignant. I think my ending just falls short of that, and now (thanks to awesome feedback on this very forum) I know for next time how to make it better. Too long?: Well, for a long time I wanted it to be 10 minutes. First rough edit was about 18 I think! I'm awful for editing, I never want to cut anything. Dave was my saviour in that he will cut and cut and cut. And he did, and I still wanted it shorter. But then we came to the stage where all we could see to cut were lines, and 1 scene. Could have made the appearing computer scenes into a montage, but we both felt this was cliched. I agree with the whole in out like a ninja thing. My shorter films are always more popular. You know I have a few films like this. And I will make more. I feel there's no harm in making something longer though, even if no one sees it. I've learnt a shed load already! I think it further prepares me for making a feature. |
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Post by Gareth on Jan 24, 2011 14:01:59 GMT
Think of a short film like a joke;
listen to this:
the best part of this particular joke is the charm in the storytelling, the delivery, the character, had this joke been told badly it would have been a pretty average joke but it would still be a joke, however if it missed any of the vital mechanics to make the story complete it wouldn't even be a joke never mind a good or bad one. Your film has great character but doesn't have the mechanics in place to make the story work and the ending pay off, for me I was left wondering what story I was meant to have been told.
if you dont know the important parts of your story, the mechanics that make it work and set up the ending, then there's no way you'll be able to trim the fat effectively, the fat is all the nice character bits that dont alter the mechanics of the film but add to its charm.
look at the joke again and imagine trimming more away from it, loose the beginning and start with; "a drunk man throws up in the pub". The audience will know that if a man comes home drunk and has thrown up on himself then his wife will not be happy, but missing the beginning with his wife setting the ultimatum means there isn't as much at stake, I think the beginning also lets us know we're on the blokes (the underdogs) side during the story and had the bloke told his friend about the ultimatum rather than us "seeing" it first hand it would have been horrible clunky exposition (show, dont tell).
now imagine missing the whole beginning and starting the story "a drunk man has thrown up over himself in the pub and is walking home to his wife" we know intuitively that this isn't a good thing and his wife isn't going to be happy, we might even buy the 20 pound note device as something the drunk bloke has came up with himself but skipping some of the most vital mechanics of the story completely ruins it.
I haven't explained very clearly what I was trying to say here but I hope you get what I'm talking about and can take apart the joke yourself and just look at how these things have to be engineered. It doesn't just apply to a film with a punchline, we need to know all these vital things to become emotionally involved in the story or at least to know which characters side we're on.
This ambiguity thing has came up a lot on this forum and at filmschool and most of the time I just dont buy it, the end of a great HBO series was ambiguous, I'll be ambiguous as to which one for fear it'll spoil it but if you've seen it you'll know which one, you were so involved with the characters and there seemed to be that many plausible possibilities once it cut to black that for me the ambiguity worked. The thing is ambiguity takes more setting up than a twist, there has to be very specific options the audience can choose as to what happens, what did he whisper in her ear? is this goodbye forever or for a little while? tears of sadness or tears of joy? did they meet up again when they got back from Tokyo? Which of the people at the end that looked very much like him turned out to be his son?
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Post by Gareth on Jan 24, 2011 14:14:30 GMT
specifically when it comes to twists, good twist usually does mean good film.
any good twist takes a hell of a lot of setting up throughout the story to make it work, it shouldn't just be the last moments where the twist is relieved that make it a film with a twist it should all be set up throughout the narrative and once you know the twist and watch the film again the film should be as, or more enjoyable, the twist should always just be the cherry on top, the special treat for first time viewers.
there's two types of twists, there's a proper one that's satisfying and there's the jack in the box twist that springs up from out of nowhere, it might be clever but it still wont be 100% satisfying.
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Post by RydCook on Feb 3, 2011 20:04:11 GMT
Hey Gareth, Sorry for such a late reply! Read all you wrote, and have taken it on board. For the record the joke didn't make me laugh. But I have to agree with all of your points. Thanks for taking the time!
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Post by Gareth on Feb 4, 2011 16:31:30 GMT
haha I thought I'd put everyone off with that rant, it was just the only way I could really try and explain how I felt, the joke was the first example that sprung to mind as something where the characters the main good thing about it if you get what I mean, I just love his telling of the joke and not particularly the joke itself
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Post by RydCook on Feb 5, 2011 13:48:34 GMT
In particular I agree with your point that the audience needs to know which character's side they're on. I think that would have really helped this film.
One comment on Vimeo has made me think the ambiguity did work to some degree: "Excellent stuff - a great story, perhaps with more serious aspects than might meet the eye, excellent acting, beautifully filmed and edited. Bravo!"
But, I think the thing with the ending is, I changed it. But I didn't change anything else (story wise, obviously dialogue changed). So I guess the film sets up for the original ending, but it never comes.
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Post by Bill Edwards on Feb 6, 2011 16:03:47 GMT
It's interesting that Gareth talks about the structure of jokes as it's something that I try to deconstruct so that I can maybe write some myself or write a little something to do an animation to. There's the set-up, the play, and the punchline. Or set-up, confrontation and resolution. Or the pledge, the turn and the prestige from Nolan's The Prestige. ;D I haven't succeeded in writing any jokes myself. I can rarely remember a joke to tell. But that's beside the point... This, I think, is a good example of an short animation with that clear three part structure: At the end there's kind of 'the penny drops' moment, and it links back to the beginning which is the bonus. I know that's an example of a clever twist that you're not keen on, Ryd, but if you think about where that short will be shown then it's more often than not going to be satisfying. The journey had a clear end point. I look at a lot of the Vancouver Film School stuff as it seems the animators are taught to write something that's less than three minutes long and has that clear three act structure. I bring all this up as much for myself than for anyone else. Thanks for taking my comments so well by the way. I felt a bit guilty rattling on like that. What kind of yogurt do owls like? Hoots of the forest. See. Not as easy as it looks... |
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), so I read it through just the once. Hope it's helpful.