*SPOILERS* Just seen it....SO DISAPPOINTED :(

[StrayGoat]

I finally got a chance to see This is England today and I am so disappointed. I felt it was Shane's worst film yet. And I've been a fan since seeing Small Time about 10 years ago.

I just felt the whole thing didn't feel real and the relationship between Smell and Shaun just seemed ludicrous. Would a girl of her age really consider a lad that looks like a child? I don't think so - she'd be going out with lads of about 20. I could just about believe it had Shaun been one of those 12/13 year olds that looks about 16 but he looked like a child.

I didn't believe the relationship between Woody and Combo either...Woody turned his back on him far too quickly if you ask me. They should have built up the tension and the racism slowly instead of going straight in with it and having Woody walk away at the start - I just didn't buy it.

I also thought the main story didn't have enough punch and the ending was unsatisfactory...if we had seen Combo snap half way through and then seen things get even more out of hand, then it might have had more power. It was ruined by saying Milky was going to be alright too.

And where were the old bill? That pakistani shopkeeper knew who Shaun was...you're not telling me that he would have turned a blind eye to that robbery and not called the police.

For me, the whole racism issue seemed to be dealt with very heavy handedly and that scene of chucking the flag in the sea at the end actually made me cringe. Almost as much as the 'hunting' scene where Woody had that ridiculous Japanese outfit on...why does Shane always have to push something that little too far for supposed comedic effect? (the 'Knob' suit in DMS, the pink reliant in Once upon a time, the citroen in DMS...there's no need for them and they take you out of the 'reality').

Apart from Turgoose and Stephen Graham, I thought the acting was poor...especially the lad that used to be Jamie in Coronation Street. But then I had the hardest time believing in his character...what lad of that age wants a kid hanging about with him?

If the film had been about Combo instead of Shaun, it might have worked better as he was by far the most interesting thing in it.

Got that all off my chest, but still not feeling any better about it. Damn, I am disappointed.

[jill]

Well StrayGoat you're entitled to your opinion. I still can't quite make up my mind which is my favourite Shane Meadow's film, but TIE is certainly in there vying with 24/7, RfRB and DMS. Also, this website seems to have gained about 200 new members since TIE went on general release-so it seems a lot of people disagree with you.

The first time I saw the film, I wasn't quite sure what to make of the Smell-Shaun relationship either. I didn't find it weird or unbelievable, just awkward. Afterwards, I thought that the point of the Smell-Shaun relationship was to provide more insight into Shaun's situation (his age, the awkwardness of adolescence etc) and how the absence of a father figure makes that much more difficult to deal with (just my opinion). For me that adds to the credibility of the Shaun-Combo storyline. Also, the fact that Smell is older and taller sort of emphasises that awkwardness. I didn't find it unbelievable. When I was a kid, older girls did occasionally go out with younger lads (admittedly not very often). Anyway, it is semi-auto-biographical, so maybe there's a real experience lurking behind Smell/Shaun.

Initially, Woody welcomes Combo, but it goes sour quickly. This is because of Combo's 'funny' (not) story, but also Lol's pretty crucial to this isn't she-the exchanges between Lol and Woody?? Later we learn that Lol had an experience with Combo that was 'the worst night of her life.' So, I didn't think it odd really-just the initial surprise, followed by the remembrance of what Combo is actually like.

I thought the get up for the hunting trip was funny-just the sort of daft malarkey that teenage lads do get up to-esp in the 6 week holiday when they're bored out of their minds. And is it inconceivable that Woody's just kind?

I've never really thought about the Citroen in DMS. Didn't really think it was there for comedic effect-it's necessary for the plot isn't it, if you think about it?

IMO not saying Milky was OK would have given it a different ending-no feel good factor at all. Not sure whether it would have been better; maybe, maybe not. I did like the end though and, in retrospect, given the 18+ controversy and the fact that a small minority of people do seem to have got the wrong message from the film (a small number of people seem to think it's racist), maybe Shane was doubly smart here-once because it's effective artistically (the final shot into camera is great IMO) and second because it completely removes any possible ambiguity about the message of the film (well for most people at least).

Well, that's my two pennies worth-expect a few more replies!

[Dave]

Well, there's no denying that you are thoroughly disappointed is there!

By the way StrayGoat, I didn't see this post until after the I sent the personal message to you, so I didn't know about this thread.

Let me have a go at picking up on what you have said.

Smell and Shaun have been mentioned before. I see your points and they all make sense. I find that the realistic nature of Shane's films means I don't find myself questioning the likelihood of certain aspects of them. I mean, weirder things than that happen in real life, and Smell appears to be the only New Romantic/Boy George-a-like in her school and her peer group, so perhaps she is a bit of 'freak' that doesn't interest most lads? Just a thought.
Basically, I can't say it bothers me. I tend to fully believe the whole realistic 'world' that Shane creates in his films, so unless anything is ever a hugely dumb idea, then things in Shane's films are 'real' to me.

You have to remember that Woody and Combo haven't seen each other for three years. They are going to have an inevitable shaky bond for a while even if Combo didn't come back spouting his racist story. That first night then followed by Combo's 'troop' rousing speech is easily enough to get Woody to get up and leave. Woody has definitely been shown to be pretty no nonsense up to that point. He also has Lol keeping on the straight and narrow.

When Shaun's Mum says that Milky is going to be alright, we don't know that that is the case for certain. Could it not just be a mother trying to reassure her child when she herself might not know the full facts (or is perhaps protecting Shaun from them).
But anyway, I don't see that finding out that Milky is going to be okay is bad in anyway. Just aswell Shane didn't use the ending where Milky meets up with Shaun on the beach at the end!

With regards to the racially motivated shop robbery. Yes, Mr Sandhu did know Shaun and where he lived, but is he really going to send the police round to Shaun's house when Shaun also has the backing of a small gang of unknown racist thugs wielding machetes?

Who is the kid that used to be Jamie in Coronation Street?

Well, I respect all your views, but I can't say I agree with hardly any of them. Bad acting? Over-done comedic effects? Can't really help you there, the style is obviously simply not to your taste.

[Dave]

The ending with the flag is also a nod to François Truffaut's "The 400 Blows"...

.. not that I've seen it.

[mystikalfury]

"Who is the kid that used to be Jamie in Coronation Street?"

Psst Dave .. me thinks the tard is refferin to Joe Gilgun

Oh an as fer me, I think StrayGoats review is a load of bollox... but, after all, he is unfortunatly entitled to his opinion

[StrayGoat]

Ha ha...here it comes...the backlash! I fully expected it seeing as this is a Meadows' fan site and all.

I can see what you are saying with Smell and Shaun, but no teenage girl, even someone who is a total outcast is going to get involved with that with a 12 year old boy. Come on, remember when you were that age - the girls were either with much older lads or were just single. Nobody I ever knew (and I've moved around a lot, so lots of schools) ever went out with someone that much younger...it's not like he looks like a teenager even. He looks like a child!

Is it conceivable that Woody is just kind? Yes, but if he is kind how the hell did he get mixed up with Combo in the first place? You know what, I could have bought it easier if he had been related to Combo - you can't choose your family afterall. I just can't see how someone as nice and friendly as Woody would end up being involved with that sort of crowd. If he had been surprised at the nasty change in Combo since he'd been in prison it would have made more sense but he said that Combo had always been mad like that. Oh and Dave - the lad that played Woody used to be Jamie in Coronation Street...he was just a child actor then.

Oh, and Jill - the citroen in DMS could have been any car - why choose something that they blatantly wouldn't want to be seen dead in? Jeez, you'd get something with a bit more street cred for £500! I reckon it was there for some sort of comedic effect, much like the reliant in 'Midlands. Didn't work for me. The only thing in the film that didn't though (well apart from the Knob jacket...he wouldn't have still been wearing that). I just wish TIE could have been half as good as DMS.

[jill]

straygoat said:

Oh, and Jill - the citroen in DMS could have been any car - why choose something that they blatantly wouldn't want to be seen dead in?

SPOILER

No backlash-I thought I was civilised ;D My plot point was that it would have been hard to take a pot shot at Richard from the front window of a Mondeo......thought maybe that was the reason...like I said, never crossed my mind that it was meant to be funny.

[StrayGoat]

Well you must be civilised, Jill...you didn't call me a 'tard! I see what you mean about the pot shot from the car...but they never knew they would be taking pot shots when they bought it did they? They should have used a Suzuki jeep or something like that...more credible yet still a cheap piece of s**t that no mark dealers could afford.

I've just had a flashback to one of Shaun's jumpers in TIE...I'm sure I had that red one with the white horses on the front when I was a kid. Hey, cut me some slack...we were poor too!

[Dave]

The 2CV Citroen idea came about from real life. Shane has mentioned it a few times.
Something along the lines of some local hard-case getting his grandma's old car when she died. He drove around it looking a bit stupid, but he was the kind of guy you wouldn't dare take the piss out of.
Something like that anyway.

[mystikalfury]

straygoat said:

Well you must be civilised, Jill...you didn't call me a 'tard!

Awww Did you take offence to my iccle comment ? Well maybe if you didn't pick apart summat that ppl worked so hard to put together with only negative crap then I wouldn't of called you a tard. Just because you don't agree with certain things (be it the way a scene was shot or the props used or the actors themselves) doesn't make the film bad... that's jus ur opinion on it an when was the last time that you made a full length movie to speak of that gives you the knowledge to critasize someone else's work ? If you're so talented an knowledgeable about wot should or shouldn't be in a film or about the relationships of the characters in it, why don't you jaunt off an make your own film for all us to pick apart ??

[matlocklad]

Although i didn't come away from the film 'dissapointed' by any means, i do agree with several points that straygoat makes, particularly the Smell/Shaun relationship, i just couldn't relate to that situation, it seemed detached from anything in my own personal experience and personal opinions are based on just that so i think it's unfair to lay into him for that.

You brought up another good point that i'd forgotten about, why, in DMS would he be wearing the Knob jacket when he knew it was there? Always bothered me that.

I think my viewing of TIE suffered from the fact that i've been coming onto this forum for over a year and have felt the build up and the hype and went to the showing with expectations that could never have been realised, i wish (Like ARMFB & DMS) i could've seen it out of curiosity and been blown away as i'm sure i would've been without the self imposed hype.

Saying that i think it is without any doubt one of the greatest films i have ever seen and i have nothing but huge respect for Shane and every single member of the cast and crew.
You will never see a 'perfect' film but this comes damn close, so put the minor negatives to the side and take it for what it is.........Bloody Brilliant.

[Dave]

mystikalfury said:

straygoat said:

Well you must be civilised, Jill...you didn't call me a 'tard!

Awww Did you take offence to my iccle comment ? Well maybe if you didn't pick apart summat that ppl worked so hard to put together with only negative crap then I wouldn't of called you a tard. Just because you don't agree with certain things (be it the way a scene was shot or the props used or the actors themselves) doesn't make the film bad... that's jus ur opinion on it an when was the last time that you made a full length movie to speak of that gives you the knowledge to critasize someone else's work ? If you're so talented an knowledgeable about wot should or shouldn't be in a film or about the relationships of the characters in it, why don't you jaunt off an make your own film for all us to pick apart ??

Come on though... everyone is entitled to their opinion. StrayGoat has given his opinion, but hasn't been on the attack in any way so he doesn't really deserve such an outburst does he?

Let's all take a deep breath.

[mystikalfury]

Sorry Dave, but I personally felt hat he didn't need to go on so hard about wot he disliked about the film... if you dislike summat that's fine, not everyone likes the same things granted, BUT jus leave it at that... end of, there's no need to go on like he did about summat that a lot of ppl put so much hard work into is all I meant.

[StrayGoat]

Well what is the point of a forum if everyone has to have the same opinion? How can there be open debate if everyone has to think the same?

I went on about what I didn't like about the film because I am a fan of Shane's earlier work and I had been really looking forward to it just like everyone else.

I appreciate that a lot of hard work went into the film but that is the case with EVERY film - does that mean we're not allowed to disklike or criticise anything?

Admittedly, I am not a film maker nor do I have a body of work to present to the public. But I'm not being touted as the bright new light in the struggling British film industry either, and as a paying customer I am entitled to my view just the same as a football fan is entitled to boo a player.

What I would have liked to have seen with TIE is something more relevant - I remember the 80s...I grew up in them too...and racism was a problem (when hasn't it been a problem?) but I think racism and immigration policies are a much greater problem in England right now. What I think would have made a more compelling story is if we saw Shaun as a grown man coming out of prison now and struggling to adapt to his new life. Through flashbacks we could see his teenage years and how he became involved with racists (much in the same way as in TIE) and then go back to the present where he is faced with modern Britain, which to a racist, would be almost exactly as the national front predicted back in the 80s. In the last few years, we have had race riots in many places in England, white vs asian, asian vs black...and rising gun crime. Not to mention the children of immigrant families being sucked into extremism and even terrorism. Then there is positive discrimination going on in the police force and other government services as well. On top of that, there has been a lot of immigration from eastern Europe which has also caused tension in areas- it would seem to me that the issues of immigration and racism today would seem like a nightmare world come true to an adult Shaun (presuming he had got sucked into nationalism). We could see the modern UK through his eyes and start to understand why he feels the way he does and ultimately become appalled by what he does (perhaps severely beat a black man like Combo did in TIE).

To me, that would have been a more thought provoking film and would have shown the complexities of the effects of immigration and racism.

Instead, we got a film about racism in the 80s which to a large extent, is irrelevant now. And has been covered before many times in films like My Beautiful Laundrette, back in the 80s when it had some relevance.

Perhaps it should have been called This Was England.

Oh, by the way...I'm not alone in disliking TIE...my wife really hated it and some of my friends were as disappointed with it as me.

[anonlytwin]

hi straygoat,

i'm not entirely sure about the majority of these opinions and i'm not particularly sure why there is an compulsion to air them? that said....

i'll begin by saying that, like you, i had a slight problem with the flag being thrown into the sea at the end of the film- this criticism only emerged through hindsight, however, when i began to question the necessity of the inherent intertextuality. in 400 blows, traffaut concludes the film by capturing antoine running away from his youth and arriving at the sea- in this image, themes of birth, innocence, lost innocence are all being referred too.. in this sense it is appropriate that Meadows should reference this film moment in his own work (do we know for sure that this is what he was doing Dave? i certainly believe so) and upon watching the film for the first time i thought that it was a very powerful and poignant moment. Even then though i wasn't sure if it worked with the film as a whole. when i thought about it some more though, i thought that it was a shame that such a wonderfully honest and, most importantly, original director like shane should waste a minute of film time referencing another film. i love inter-textuality in film(or any of the arts) and feel it has a massive place. but, and maybe i'm wrong, this sort of thing is not, for me, what Meadows films are about. without prior knowledge of 400 blows, would the scene work? i'm not too sure. anyway, it was one moment in the film that ("in my opinion" haha) sat uneasily with the film as a whole... yet it still worked during the actual watching of the film ... so i'm gonna shut up about this (i hate criticising a film i have already grown to adore, especially when its a criticism that only emerged from over analysis) ... i'm exhausted..

beyond that though stray goat- i simply fail to appreciate the motivation that drives you to pick apart so much of the film in an open forum. This kind of thing happens all the time on imdb and it inevitably degenrates into "but thats just my opinion..". Good, good that we all have opinions, but voicing them in such a incessantly negative (petty? : / ) manner is achieving nowt. sure you've established that you have an opinion- again good, god speed- but what else? have you nourished or nurtured any point or idea that makes anyone's appreciation of the film stronger? likewise, your wife 'hated it,' your mates hated it.. and? that is just their opinion.. so again you've established, what exactly? what should we do? call for the immediate burning of the entire film stock? sure i pick apart films all the time, but more than that I do attempt to derive at least moments of value from everything i take the time to watch. Surely you cannot deny that there are, at the very very least, some astounding cinematic moments in TIE.. maybe not, but that would severely surprise me. be it the cinematography, the use of sound and music, certain performances, certain aspects of characterisation, certain moments of humour-whatever- why not embrace the good and save the bad for your own private musings?

sorry straygoat. don't mean to lay into you and if its any consolation indifference is the biggest insult and i've inexorably failed to react with indifference eh? its just your post is really quite oppressive and unnecessary and picks apart mainly insignificant details. Shane is doing things in cinema that few other people are- for me, he captures everyday moments and realities in a more realistic/honest/compassionate/humorous fashion than anyone else i'm aware of in british cinema today- the cinema landscape would be a duller place without him and i'm pleased he's having a go.. i hope he keeps on having a go.. if he's not create perfection then so be it.. but he is definitely doing something special... its all just opinion, but positive opinion is far more worthwhile..

what did you like about the film Straygoat? come on, admit it, there was some great moments wasn't there?