Post from another forum - discuss

[zamora]

Just saw this post on a thread about TIE on another forum I go on and although I dont agree with it, I thought it raised some interesting points I hadn't thought about .

I was also pretty dissapointed by it.

It was like a devised theatre-in-educaiton piece with decent actors but with no real understanding of the issues they are trying to address or the social historical context in which the film is set.

The main problem i have with it is the utterly unrealistic depiction of the skinheads.

We have woodys gang of touchly feely skins who talk freely about their emotions and are totally non-racist. Suddenly into their midst comes psyco racist skin and it as if hes from another planet. There a particulalry cringeworthy bit where he shocks them when he says 'the're was this fucking ... I'm gonner say it! .. fucking paki!' . But 'paki' was an everyday word in those days - and still is in many parts of the country.

Skinheads - by the early 80s - were closely associated with the far right. Not all of them were card carrying fash but many of them were openly and enthusiasticlly racist and those that weren't were ambiguous at best. The exception to this was groups of avowedly ant-facist skinhead groups (associated with Red Action I think) - but these were overtly political
and I'm not sure if they were much in evidence in 1982 .

Whilst not all skins were racist and/or nazis, the whole culture was rooted round machismo - and fighting was a central part of that. At gigs and football matches you'd get groups of skins up for a ruck - and you made sure you steered well clear of em. Again woodys group bare absolutely no relation to that.

And i didn't like the way psycho skins racism was explained away as him being fucked up by his family background . Therefore he's full of rage and hate - thats why he becomes a nazi. Too pat and totally divoreced from any social political context. It also serves to make him a 'freak' - not like us nice non-racist people. Far more interesting would have been making Woody the racist nazi.

Basically I think meadows is doing a totally rose tinted spectacles job and , whilst he is great at doing gritty but sensitive stuff about young peoples in particular (like the excellent 24/7) - his political understanding seems to very limited, and this was very much exposed in 'This is England'.

[anonlytwin]

shane has justified alot of this previously, namely the idea that original skinheads were brought together by their love of carribean music and not for political ends

the comment about the word 'paki' may have some substance, although i wouldn't actually know. but it is telling that a large part of this post suggests the poster has a few racist tendencies him/herself .

i'd also disagree that woody's past 'serves to make him a 'freak'. i think it actually serves to make him human and actually removes him from the stereotype that other directors might have created to protect their own liberal interests.

rose tinted? not for me. jesus, i've watched the thing abot 12 times and still have to avert my eyes at certain scenes

[Tom]

Jun 14, 2008 18:25:32 GMT zamora said:

There a particulalry cringeworthy bit where he shocks them when he says 'the're was this fucking ... I'm gonner say it! .. fucking paki!' . But 'paki' was an everyday word in those days - and still is in many parts of the country.

[/quote]

Obviously, I'm not certain on the context that this original poster understands the term 'paki', but I'd say their understanding of it in the era is limited.

I was at school from 1983 onwards, and the word 'paki', though in common use, was a racist term. I grew up in South London, which like many parts of the country, was populated by young, second generation immigrants.

Many of the kids at school were chided with this word, 'paki', usually by other kids imitating the ignorant views that were prevalent outside the school gates.

Just because the phrase was in heavy use, that doesn't mean that it was a term of endearment. It was, is and always will be, used as a nasty verbal attack, loaded with venom.

I remember the violence, the racial tension (the Brixton riots especially) and the simmering hate in Thatcher's Britain. I don't believe that the original poster got things right personally. Maybe we remember a different eighties, but TIE captured a microcosm of a nation dealing with international issues, the over-use of hairspray, socialism clashing with elitism.

There was a deep racial divide, with the old working class fighting the new working class. Britain was a volatile and passionate place, with tensions bubbling over everywhere.

Remembering the heavy use of a racist phrase as part of the norm indicates that someone else is remembering things through rose tinted glasses.

[amy]

I got the impression that TIE was supposed to be more from Shaun's perspective, how this group of people seemed to him. As for Woody's group, I thought their bonds were more in friendship than shared politics.

I'd disagree with the rose-tinted spectacles comment too, some of the scenes were pretty brutal, especially when you think about the fact that there was a kid present.

[Dave]

This fellow seems to have entirely missed the whole thing about Combo having just come out of prison.

Metaphorically speaking, Combo pretty much has just come from another planet!
It's so clear that Combo has been changed in prison. If he used to hang out with Woody (which he did), then there's no chance he used to be like this before his stint in 'stir'.
Prison is the main thing that has infected Combo, not his family background compared to Milky's.... that's just a catalyst that stokes his new found racist ways.
I think it is mentioned in the commentary, but when Combo gets everyone around his flat to perform his one-man call to arms speech, it's just something he is regurgitating from his racist 'mentors' he befriended in the clink.

The whole mad thing about the word 'paki' is that it WILL be an everyday word IF you hang around in certain circles your whole life.
Anyway, Combo would know that the word would not be applauded by Woody and his gang, so it makes sense that Combo would semi-apologise before saying it anyway, even in the unlikely event that the word was being used on Blue Peter every week.

He claims that all skinheads were racist in the 80's, but I doubt he met them all. He also back pedals on that statement anyway.
Whereas Shane knew the real Woody.

For crying out loud, don't invite these people over from this other forum to bang on. We've gone through this tiresome charade before on this forum. One occasion was the reason the forum had to be locked down to members only!

[zamora]

No no wouldn't do that, I just copied and pasted, they know nothing. That's why i removed any info about the poster.

As an ex punk who left school in 81, I remember skinheads as being generally fucking scary and the main reason most people became one was because they liked a fight. Anyway don't want to resurrect any old debates you've had a thousand times before.

[shindig]

I think he got it spot on. Woody's lot weren't touchy-feely at all. They were just a group of good mates. It's a clique, not a political movement.

[billywizz]

i think some people get into the detail a bit too much, specifically if it's a film about a scene they were a part of.....but it's not supposed to be a documentary about skinheads in 1983 is it..? it's a film about one lads experiences growing up with a group of people in a detached, small, english town who happen to be skinheads.....the wider politics of the time are tied into it to a certain extent, but it seems to me that the telling of the story is more important than any political message....