Shanes anti - Thatcher views

[oldhamlad]

Whilst accepting that everybody has their own vies of Margaret Thatcher and Shane made it clear what his views on the Iron Lady were, both in the film and his interview with Melvyn Bragg, I feel he got it wrong trying to sum up the mood in the country when the film This is England is based...1982 - 83.

Shane made out that it was popular to be Anti - Thatcher, when the truth was at that time in particular she was riding on a crest of a wave, as proved by her winning the next two General elctions by a massive majority, if I remember rightly over half of the working classes voted for her and a third of the unemployed!

We now know that this was mainly down to her strong anti- trade unions stance, the way she would not bow down to the IRA hunger strikers and the Miners and of course the Falkland Islands, she was a massive hero to may peole in the country for a few years, so as a former Skinhead/Mod from that era, I can assure you that most youths did actually support or at least admire her at that time,

if anything it was the liberal thinking middle classes that hated her the most.

Which brings me to a comment that Shane made to Melvyn Bragg of how embarrassed he was to see the young Argentinian conscripts who had surrendered aged 16/17, does he think the pilots who shot at and blown away so many ships and boats costing hundreds of British lives were innocent 16/17 year olds ? what about all those brave Argie soldiers who fought to to the death on Goose Green and other landmarks killing many British in combat were only 16/17 ? it was a war Shane, rightly or wrongly and we went down there to take back the Islands because the islanders wished to remain British, and still do to this day.

of course there are arguments about the Falklands that will rage on forever, but Shane you were ten years old in 1982 with all due respect so you were hardly in a position to have an opinion then, of course you may have one now but hindsight is a wonderful thing ?

this does not reflect from such a good film though, of course you got the mood of the country wrong, but you are basing it on a 10-12 year old boys memories so it was flawed, but wonderfully so.

Keep up the good work, it is a breath of fresh air but try and steer clear of the typical lefty Political correct brainwashing ideals of the British film industry.

Respects

[Dave]

oldhamlad said:

Shane made out that it was popular to be Anti - Thatcher, when the truth was at that time in particular she was riding on a crest of a wave, as proved by her winning the next two General elctions by a massive majority, if I remember rightly over half of the working classes voted for her and a third of the unemployed!

Where do you get that idea from? The only blatant anti Thatcher views in the film are held by Combo, and this is because it helps his twisted rhetoric. The only other thing in the film I can think of is the graffiti "maggie is a twat".
Shane doesn't makes out it was popular to be anti Thatcher at all when you consider it is only Combo spouting such stuff, and Combo is hardly a role-model is he!

The issue with the 16/17 years old comments is more to do with the media coverage in my opinion. The footage of the youngest soldiers was kept off of British screens because it looked bad, and echoed the overall situation of a huge armed force battering a much smaller force. Obviously not every single Argentinian was 16 or 17, but they no doubt accounted for most of the front line casualties.

Interesting points though. I have to admit that I don't know a great deal about the Falklands, so you can take my comments as you see fit.

[fatself]

well, since all the atrocities of that era (Falklands etc.) were a direct result of Thatchers egocentric and introverted strategics, a fact well documented by Meadows in interviews for the film, I'd say he (and, in this case, his output) is ardently Anti-Maggie.

[anonlytwin]

Dave's right- its only Combo who spouts such views... we shouldn't be anachronistic about this one: shane is i assume anti-thatcher, a lot of what the film discusses elucidates these views but this does not mean that he lets hindsight influence his discussion about what most people were thinking in 1983

[jill]

As a veteran of the miner's strike, I'd rather not contribute much to this discussion (I am a pretty laid back sort, but the memories of that time still make me angry), except to say that much of what you say Oldhamlad is misleading if not plain wrong.

You say that Thatcher rode to power on the crest of a wave, the inference being that she had overwhelming public support. This is factually incorrect. The Tories won the 1979 election with just under 44% of the popular vote and the 1983 election with around 42.5% of the popular vote-i.e on both occasions more people voted for other parties than for the Tories. Under a system of proportional representation the Tories would have needed the support of the liberals/SDP to form a government. That they were able to wield a massive majority in the HoC is due to the anomalies of our voting system.

It is true that Thatcher secured the support of a section of the working class, thanks to some clever and popularist policies-e.g council house sales. That said, there was a North/South dimension to this. The 'class' that did most to help the Tories into power were the skilled working class/lower middle class in the South East. (the women's vote was also significant in 1979) In fact, the first Tory election victory marked the beginning of a political N/S divide in Britain that exists to this day (as the recent local election results bear out).

While the 'myth' of Thatcher's popularity was spread by tabloids that were mainly read by working class people, she ruled over a deeply divided country and there was probably more conflict and dissent during this time that at any other time in recent history, as evidenced by Greenham Common, the Miner's strike, the poll tax riots, and race riots in many parts of the country. The use of footage in TIE to set the scene/context for the rise of the BNP is brilliant.

And while you're quite right that not all the soldiers/sailors etc who served in the Argentine forces were 16 or 17, I can tell you that a relative of mine who served in the navy during the Falklands told me personally that he felt physically sick when they took PoWs aboard his ship some of whom were about 14 and were scared shitless.

I've heard Shane draw comparisons between the Falklands and Iraq in interviews. Personally, I don't think the similarities between the two wars are very compelling-the Iraq war being very unpopular among British voters. But you are correct that there was a massive amount of nationalist jingoism at the time of the Falklands invasion-personally it made me feel sick. IMHO Shane's point is more about the dangers of unreflectiive, chauvinistic nationalism. Combo is the absolute personification of that sentiment.

Rant over.

[large michael]

carry on ranting, Jill, when you're right you're right, after all. i was 12 in 83 myself, but i dont think i missed the love for Maggie cos i was a child, but because there wasnt any.

[fatself]

nice incite jill...
But ashamedly , my Dads a copper and was on the opposing force during the miners conflict.
I know the following statement is a non sequitur, but even though he was working under the puppet strings of Thatcher, he was still lauding the miners.

[jill]

Not at all Fatself-and there's certainly nothing to be ashamed of. IMO one of the best books written about the Miner's strike was written by an ex-policeman, which documented poignantly how terrible it was to police divided communities and how personally conflicted he felt about the strike. Sadly, the books now out of print (I'm still trying to track down a copy) I was right in the middle of it-being in Notts coalfield and understand that feeling completely. The striking Notts miners made a distinction between the local police and those that were bussed in to police the strike-as the 'I've met the Met' badges(commonly worn by striking miners) testify.

I don't want to get into this one because I still feel so deeply about it more than 20 yers on. Just goes to show how divisive it all was.

[oldhamlad]

Well I have certainly cranked things up a wee bit though I do not wish to come across as confrontational, it is just I saw things differently than Shane, I was 21 in 1982 whereas Shane was only 10, and one of the posters was 12, in 1982, but reckoned there was no love whatsover for Maggie 1 oh yes there was my friend, as much as she was despised she was also a hero to alot of people in this country and abroad,, her three general election results confirm this...let's not kid ourselves the working classes all suddenly became Tories, they voted for Maggie, who has been labelled by many as THE most popular single leader of this country ever !

As for Jill and her disdain not to talk about the miners dispute because it is painful, is it becasue Notts, where she came from were the first mioners to go back to work / and did she feel ashamed of this ? Notts were always moderate and I see nothing wrong in that........what I do recall about the miners dispute is the absolute bullying of striking miners attacking men who decided the strike was futile and they went back to work to support their families, they saw through Scargills egotistic self centred trip, and who can forget those two Welsh miners murdered because they chose to go back to work to support their families,thier assailants dropping huge boulders on to the car from a motorway bridge. It was not all nice and pleasnat I can assure you.

I accept that the character combo was the main anti -Thatcher ranter but Shane did make a strong point in the interview with Melvyn Bragg about his shame that we defeated 15 year old conscripts ( Argies ) and one poster reckons there were some aged 14, ?? how do they know they were 14 ? i doubt this very much.......

I take it that most of you are from the left/liberal way of thinking, well slag Maggie off as much as it suits you but please remember this when Maggie swept to power in 1979, she stalled the NF, who were making huge inroads into British politics, her right wing pro British views were enough for most British people to steer away from the far right, so let's be thankful for that.

[bsowrey85]

She had great tits aswell.

[jtrodreigez]

who Maggie or Jill?






sorry Jill.

[shanemeadows]

And Gingivitis.

[fatself]

and there's me thinking Shane was going to have some extensive, politically charged post to contribute to the discussion.

[bsowrey85]

Does anyone think this is actually just Maggie Thatchers masquerading as a lad from Oldham?

[anonlytwin]

was thatcher ginger!?