When you owe you Pay

[RydCook]

Erm... laughed all the way through... not meant to though am I? I personally didn't think any of the performances were particularly good. I did enjoy the banter about the heater. Agreed about the "after you" bit, and that your performance should be more sinister. Visually it was great, good shot variety, and great effects. Loved the bit with the dog.

[dude]

Aug 4, 2008 22:22:30 GMT RydCook said:

Erm... laughed all the way through... not meant to though am I? I personally didn't think any of the performances were particularly good. I did enjoy the banter about the heater. Agreed about the "after you" bit, and that your performance should be more sinister. Visually it was great, good shot variety, and great effects. Loved the bit with the dog.

Cheers mate yes it was fun were only warming up our tyres for the big race.Yet to see the big finish but it's very helpful getting all the feedback
Watch this space

[Gareth]

the gangster film equivalent of white middle class people rapping

sorry for being so completley negative about this but I'll try my best to be as constructive as possible:

theres alot of things I could rant on about but I'll focus on performance

the characters werent thought about enough (maybe at all) you and the other actors had nothing to play, for example the hand cutting scene;

fair enough the prosthetic hand was amazing but it was just that - a special effect, none of your audience belived that was a hand because you didnt sell it to them, just think about how you could have made that scene stronger!

how does your character and his mate feel about cutting someones hand off? your character could enjoy cutting a hand off more than anything else in the world but his mate could be repulsed by it and just along for the ride.
or your character could have been as repulsed by it as his mate and they argue over who has to do it,
theres 1000's of more interesting ways that scene should have played rather than them just doing it

but for godsake lets forget about the two blokes cutting the arm off and look at the bloke GETTING HIS ARM CUT OFF!!! without the blood and the fact he had his clothes on you'd think he was having a relaxing bath, how knocked out was he that he didnt come to whilst having his arm sawn off???

just think about character and conflict when your writing a scene and when you shoot it and think about the beats of the scene and what the audience should be feeling,

add as much conflict as you possibly can at every level of a scene

and when you cut a limb off in your next film get down the butchers and get a leg of lamb for your sound design

[dude]

There's alot there mate it's not poss to do much more in a tiny bathroom and i do mean tiny we could not swing a cat or a mouse for that matter it's poss best to just say that you did not like it. I'm not happy with how it's playing it's totally out of sync and i think it looks poor on line also IT'S ALSO NOW ON YOU TUBE HERE less pic quality BUT IT'S IT SYNC THERE'S ALWAYS A COMPROMISE SOMEWHERE.

but hey all this feedback is awesome help for when we shoot for real..



uk.imdb.com/name/nm2428088/

[shindig]

You sound too weedy to be a gangster, frankly. Far too aggitated for someone about to do something very serious and malicious.

[dude]

That was where the two sides of Jake will show there are two sides to Jake but in this test filming which is all it is .We just see Jake pissed off having to even visit tony has pissed Jake off it's just something else on his list.
We could go on all day but it's only a test of the new camera gear and to try out some effect ideas .
IT'S NO BIG DEAL the whole film cost me £10 to shoot
All actors and makeup cameraman all give there time free
camera and sound all included
it's the first film that i have ever made with any thing more then the crap £300 camcorder film shot last year.

[Gareth]

if its only a test shoot say that at the start of the thread and on your vimeo page,

if it is a short film you should have put more thought into it and not treated it as a test shoot

why shouldn't you make everything you shoot as good as you possibly can???

I treat everything i shoot as a "big deal"

it pisses me off taking the time and effort to give constructive feedback only to hear "its just a test shoot" or it was only shot on a camera phone with 10p and a bag of chips, if its a good film the constraints only strengthen it,

putting more thought and effort into your writing and direction costs fuck all.

[dude]

It's something that need not be said i never said here everybody the new
Martin Scorsese gangster film by Paul Easter when you make a short film you of course lay your self open [bear ] to all comments and feedback.it's part of being an Actor i don't know of a film where every one agrees and loves it. Remember one thing i have never had one days training no drama class's course's or any seminaries not one ever but I'm now getting cast in films and Gangsters films and just keep pushing myself forward which it my book is the only way. When you next comment on a film perhapses you could ask about budget .where is the film going Festivals etc in this case test only .You cant give feedback on a film as if it had hollywood money spent on it.Allow some hollywood films look like they had no money spent on them at all but cost a small country to make

[Gareth]

writing and performance was the main concern in my feedback and none of that costs anything

[shindig]

Agreed. If you're making excuses, why shoot it at all? Aside from the satisfaction of getting it on tape.

[dude]

Thats simple cos i don't sit on my arse all day on there doing nothing about my life .

i think there's only 5 filmmakers on here that are going anywhere so I'll listen to them thanks. and they all know who there are people who add something when they comment in stead of saying how they would of done it .But oh yer there are making there own film's count

Shindig . get writing about something that may help you

garethbowler. you could have read early posts to get the feel of the short
it is not a serious work at all never meant to be it's what it is a free short to learn from so all mistake are made now it's just business like and saves time and money later .

[Gareth]

I'm not even responding to that, cannot be bothered

[Tom]

Oh boy, I can see both sides of this. And for what it's worth, I think that we're all aware that making something is better than shooting nothing.

GB's right in the sense that a lot of thought needs to go into the writing and performance, regardless of cost, otherwise, what's the point?

On the other side, if you're relatively inexperienced in all aspects of filmmaking, directing ANYTHING is a baptism of fire. So the glaring mistakes only become obvious once everything has been stitched together.

What I hope you will do, Paul, is go back to the screenplay and think about the story as a whole. Not just the small points that have been raised, but the the value of the story: i.e. - Why is this story worth telling and what do you think it is really about? If it's just an excercise in giving yourself screentime, cool. I mean, I know a lot of people who do that, and for some it works,

But if it's because there are underlying ideas and motives beyond the onscreen violence, then work out how we (the audience) are going to get to that.

It's really hard to keep your mind on the thousands of things you have to think about when making a film, and there's a tendency to try and deal with everything all at the same time. What's important for any actor who steps in front of and behind the camera is to be two steps ahead of everthing. Now that's a tough thing to do. But as GB says - the beats of a script are intensely important. When it comes to writing, it must have a skill, a pace, a feeling. Scene to scene, the film should move with ease, creating an important whole. Think of each scene as a mini film with moments of interest. If a scene doesn't help to tell the story, take it out. Be ruthless and honest with the story UNDER the 'plot'.

The other thing I'd say is that weedy bad guys can be fucking terrifying if approached right (Trainspotting's Begbie anyone?) I'm not sure that Jake is weedy, but he could certainly lose 50% of his dialogue and be 100% stronger.

Let me just take a stab at how I think you can make Jake a captivating character:

- Less dialogue and just let Jake react to the other characters. Everyone should have to operate from their own levels and motivations, and if you figure out what each of the characters REALLY wants, then you'll have shape. That's something you need to ask yourself about EVERY character in this - why are they there and why should the audience care? If you can't make the answer to that compelling and provide a truthful reason, then drop them or work on them.

- If you draw up exciting and interesting characters around Jake, he will become so much more a product of his environment. He might be a horrible bastard, or a screwed up schizophrenic, but he must still be understandable, providing access for the audience to see something in him they get. Whilst I'm sure there'll be some tender moments with his baby, I would suggest working on some solo moments for his character (possibly with no dialogue) where the Jake beneath all the other stuff comes out. So rather than two-sides, he becomes three-dimensional.

- I would suggest that, as you are an actor (and will probably know lots of actors) you workshop the script BEFORE you shoot. This will do so much for the script and you'll be able to see the problems in it. Even get someone else to play Jake whilst you take another role, and then none at all. Try all the combinations and develop your instincts.

You've been openly criticised about what you've done with little preparation, and I can see the points all are making, including yourself, Paul. The best way to answer these is to simply know what YOU want to do to make it better.

You've cited Ray Winstone in Nil By Mouth as a influence, but may I suggest you watch a few other (less obvious) films for how to play this? I would suggest trying to track down Scar, which is actually a one-off TV programme (so maybe hard to find). It had Jason Isaacs in it, and you know what, it's shot like a doc, but you'd never doubt for a minute he's real guy who lives, breathes violence. But the best thing, he doesn't hit, stab or cut anyone. He just talks about the bad things he's done. Both repulsed and excited by his own recollections, all whilst hardly saying a word. That's great acting, great directing and great writing, all sitting quietly on the screen, dragging you in by doing very little. I'd also cite Gary Stretch's turn in DMS as a key indicator on the range of horrible guys and how you have to pick your start point.

These are all things to think about, so take it in and straighten it all out so that when you do shoot the movie, you can show that NOT having training and all that junk doesn't make you less capable.

[dude]

Tom some of your idea's & suggestions are just great very helpful indeed have written Jake with scene's where his Actions say all that need to be said with no or little dialogue. Making this short has helped me as it's got all the swearing out of me so when in the film he does swear it will hit home shock effect with no over kill. agree that having no formal training need not or does have to hold you up if anything it can give a director a blank cassavas on work on i find it very easy to mold to a character

i have found your points very helpful and well directed

Paul.

[Dazza]

I actually love working with people who havent had a major acting break yet. Most of my cast for my new film have been on TV, in short films and some feautures with small roles but they are still hungry and determined for that break and that comes out in there performance.

Thats what I love about Mr Meadows you can see that in a lot of his cast. For me personally Fuck working with Brad Pitt or Tom cruise I wouldnt want to ;D

I think we can safely say that Paul has taken onboard the constructive criticism and hopefully this will show in his finished film. Lets not go down another arguement route as it just isnt worth it and everyone is on here to showcase there work, talent or to learn. So let the finished films people submit do the talking and keep things constructive without any digs!