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Post by saffy on Sept 29, 2010 13:09:43 GMT
I actually found Trev's rape scene the most disturbing. Asking myself why, I think it's because it was HER. You knew that Lol had already been molested by her father so although, please don't get me wrong here, last night's scene was genuinely heart stopping, maybe somewhere in my head, the knowledge that he had done it before to Lol, made you just want to get angry with/for Lol and it didn't make me feel as shocked and scared as Trev's rape scene did, rather, it made me feel anger. It brought out different emotions.
I don't think I'm explaining myself very well, but I know what I mean.
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Post by saffy on Sept 29, 2010 13:32:22 GMT
I still think that one of the most menacing lines of the series was: "This could be the best fuck of your life, or the worst!"
Chills me even to type it .. makes me feel physically sick and so this is probably why I was more disturbed by Trev's scene.
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Post by zolabud on Sept 29, 2010 13:42:30 GMT
I felt sick because of the hammer... and even though I know there are cameraman there...It shocked me to the core.
It wasn't the attempted rape so much with Lol,it was that darned hammer...
I also watched American History X again yesterday (You Tube it) with the brilliant Edward Norton as a chilling racist...And there is a bit with a black guy...Edward Nortons foot and a kerb which Norton made him bite...I have seen the film 3 times but at that particular point I have to turn the lappy off.I know what happens I have just never seen it.
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Post by Dazza on Sept 29, 2010 13:57:10 GMT
It was brilliantly filmed and brutally real. The end worked well although it was what I expected to happen. I was thinking that something different would happen to Mick like say he walked out on the family and we the viewer thought he was getting away with it only to be hit by a bus or something....
I love the Meadows power of making you change your opinion on a character, he used it in ARFRB with Morrell where we went through a rang of different emotions and feelings towards a character and he did it brilliantly again with Combo. By the end of the episode I genuinely really felt compassion towards Combo. He was a proper C**t in the film then redeemed himself in the series, I think Shane is saying that people can change not everyone is pure evil although Mick hmmmmmm....... in a way Combo was getting what he believed he deserved from the attack on Milky, he didn't serve any prison time that we know of for that little show of violence. He also took the can out of his love for Lol and to protect her. Definitely a very deep character with both good and bad features.
I would like to think some TV drama awards should be heading for the Midlands, everyone involved was brilliant but Vicky Mcclure and Johnny Harris should both be up. Big congrats to all involved.
Last point, episodes 3 and 4 were quite different from 1 and 2, I'm assuming the plan is to release episodes 3 and 4 to film festival together as a Shane Meadows film 'This is England 86'? It should do well down this route.
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Post by kelpie on Sept 29, 2010 17:45:26 GMT
I found both attacks harder to watch, but Lol's was quite traumatic for me. I couldn't even sleep last night. Brilliant, powerful stuff.
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Post by stantheman on Sept 29, 2010 18:26:03 GMT
An incredible final episode. Combo redeemed himself as many have said, but the 'support' and forgivness for him surprises me somewhat. Let's remember that this was the character who battered a man half to death for the colour of his skin  |
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Post by jill on Sept 29, 2010 19:40:46 GMT
I have to be honest, immediately afterwards, I really didn't like the end at all. Was going to post something and then decided to spend a bit of time thinking about it. Like Kelpie said-in t'other thread I think-it took some processing. Feel differently about it now.
Just to say though, that I thought that dramatically it was all excellent. Kudos to Vicky Mcclure and Johnny Harris-that must have been a really emotional trial to perform. The direction was excellent. The pace was perfect. And I also thought Stephen Graham did a really good job of playing Combo as 'transformed' but still retaining enough of his inflection, mannerism etc to be recognisable as the Combo from the film.
Initially though I had some problems with what to make of the meaning of all this. Before the show aired, I was torn between whether I wanted a totally realistic ending-how things would likely play out in the 'real world'-and an ending that wasn't 'feel good' exactly (just about imposssible), but resolved things so there was some kind of light at the end of what's been a very dark tunnel.
At first, I didn't think the ending had done either. I really couldn't work out why there was any need to redeem Combo at all and I wasn't really sure what to make of him being cast as a saviour, of sorts, given that Lol had said (in the film) that the night she spent with him was the worst night of her life. I also thought it would likely turn the whole thing around, so rather than Lol's story coming to some sort of conclusion, with the focus still on Lol, it would end up being about Combo's redemption. To be fair, that has happened to some degree. As harsh as it may sound, I was thinking it would have been better to end with Lol now facing the consequences of all the hideousness.
When I'd thought it over, I saw it a bit differently. After all that Lol's been through, maybe the realistic ending was just too much to bear. Since she killed Mick with a hammer she'd taken with her to the house, she'd have probably needed O.J. Simpson's lawyer to stand any chance in the courts. If somebody was going to take the rap for Lol, then it had to be Combo-couldn't have been anybody else with any credibility. I now also understand why plot wise Woody couldn't know what was happening (I think).
So maybe it wasn't so much about redeeming Combo as writing him as changed enough and his circumstances being such, that he would actually do this. Combo suffers total psychological disintegration at the end of the film and looked like he'd been in a pretty bad way since, so in that respect it maybe it wasn't too much of a stretch to imagine he'd had a road to Damascus moment somewhere along the line in the intervening three years.
I did think the final montagy-like bit might have been a bit more spread out though-it was hard to figure out whether all that we saw was happening immediately afterwards, or was bits and pieces over a more extended period of time.
Ultimately, there was a balance between the really dark story line and the desire to give the audience some relief, I thought. And, as other people have pointed out, there was no attempt to wrap it all up 'nicely' (in both senses)-that would have been awful. There was a whole lot of messy unresolved stuff, which is as it would be.
So, I think that's what I think, although I'm still thinking about it. That says something about how powerful this drama has been. With the majority of British TV drama these days, I usually forget it pretty much instantly.
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Post by stantheman on Sept 29, 2010 20:12:43 GMT
I did think the final montagy-like bit might have been a bit more spread out though-it was hard to figure out whether all that we saw was happening immediately afterwards, or was bits and pieces over a more extended period of time. Yeah, I got exactly the same sense of confusion with this. I'm guessing, though, that the scene where Lol is comforting her crying sister was within days (maybe even the day after) of the killing. As for Combo's incarceration, that must have been set much further on, as it will all have had to go through the courts, etc. And typing that I've just relaised I'm blabbering on about a detail that in the grand scale of things doesn't really matter anyway |
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Post by kelpie on Sept 29, 2010 20:40:06 GMT
I have to be honest, immediately afterwards, I really didn't like the end at all. Was going to post something and then decided to spend a bit of time thinking about it. Like Kelpie said-in t'other thread I think-it took some processing. Feel differently about it now. I felt the same as you, Jill. I was concerned about Combo just suddenly appearing and it turning into his redemption. I also worried that they were going to bring another "love" angle into it with him and I just felt that was too much for Lol. Happily, I didn't quite get that feeling from it. It was more complicated. I also felt a little let down at the lack of resolution with the triangle. Lol and Milky was wrapped up, but I wasn't sure if she was just settling for Woody now or if things were really fixed between them. He must know about her father at the end, but we never heard them talk anything through. I thought about it though and the ending makes no sense for Lol if it is just about Combo being the big hero and "saving" her so she can be with a man she no longer loves anyway. I think the ending is all about hope... Combo was in such a dark place anyway, with nowhere he belonged. We know he loved Lol and he can relate to her pain. He couldn't see Lol's life being wasted and his own life seemed negligible and so he took the blame and got a little peace of mind for himself for doing so, for the first time in years. For Lol, this means that - for the first time in her life - she is free. Her father is not there looming over her (although she still has a terrible thing to live with). With the final montage, I have to see that as an empowered Lol who now feels more at ease in this world. That she and Woody really have worked things out and can have a future. That it is significant that the five people who all of this has touched are playing cards alone together, apart from their friends. That this is Lol, with the people she loves the most. The people she can trust. I like that idea, of Lol's hope and Combo's peace of mind, but tinged with blood and numerous secrets. |
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Post by jill on Sept 29, 2010 20:41:31 GMT
I did think the final montagy-like bit might have been a bit more spread out though-it was hard to figure out whether all that we saw was happening immediately afterwards, or was bits and pieces over a more extended period of time. Yeah, I got exactly the same sense of confusion with this. I'm guessing, though, that the scene where Lol is comforting her crying sister was within days (maybe even the day after) of the killing. As for Combo's incarceration, that must have been set much further on, as it will all have had to go through the courts, etc. And typing that I've just relaised I'm blabbering on about a detail that in the grand scale of things doesn't really matter anyway No, I wasn't splitting hairs either-not intentionally anyway. It obviously did move from soon afterwards, to a longer period. As the discussion in another thread has it-a film ends when the story's told, a TV show ends after 60 minutes (or something). I thought it needed more time, but I wouldn't have known what to cut to allow that to happen. |
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Post by jill on Sept 29, 2010 20:46:09 GMT
I think the ending is all about hope... I agree, but not in a simplistic way, which would have been a terrible way to end it. Woody couldn't have known before, he knows now, so maybe there's some hope for them, but it'll still be a rough ride. |
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Post by kelpie on Sept 29, 2010 20:50:25 GMT
I think the ending is all about hope... I agree, but not in a simplistic way, which would have been a terrible way to end it. Woody couldn't have known before, he know's now, so maybe there's some hope for them, but it'll still be a rough ride. I agree. That's why I said it was tinged with blood and secrets. There's a lot of baggage just in their relationship and a whole lot of other things going on for Lol. Her past, her affair, the murder, Combo... I do hope that her role in TIE'90 isn't all about revisiting love triangles though. I'd rather see other aspects of her being explored. I wanted to see more of her relationship with Kelly. That one could be vitally important plot-wise! I really liked the contrast in mood between the gang playing cards and those in the pub. |
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Post by zolabud on Sept 29, 2010 21:13:18 GMT
I have to be honest, immediately afterwards, I really didn't like the end at all. Was going to post something and then decided to spend a bit of time thinking about it.
Me too...I waited 'til I watched it again.
I found the first half completely bearable.I was wondering where the next joke...ad lib was coming from.Apairt from Woody falling off the bed after Lol had smacked him on the head..Laughs were a bit thin on the ground last night.
Then part 3,4, (was there a part 5 last night? It was on for an hour and 5 minutes?) Anyway,TIE changed. Even the scene where Smell and Shaun were 'together' in the toilet were somehow-private?
Am I making sense?
I felt like we were eavesdropping....
I repeat,and I am not proud of it...I have watched this last episode at points during the day and I cannot watch or listen to Lol and Micks 'scene'...
Sure I will have more thoughts...
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Post by jill on Sept 29, 2010 21:16:57 GMT
I agree, but not in a simplistic way, which would have been a terrible way to end it. Woody couldn't have known before, he know's now, so maybe there's some hope for them, but it'll still be a rough ride. I agree. That's why I said it was tinged with blood and secrets. There's a lot of baggage just in their relationship and a whole lot of other things going on for Lol. Her past, her affair, the murder, Combo... I do hope that her role in TIE'90 isn't all about revisiting love triangles though. I'd rather see other aspects of her being explored. I wanted to see more of her relationship with Kelly. That one could be vitally important plot-wise! I really liked the contrast in mood between the gang playing cards and those in the pub. I agree and was agreeing! 'Blood and secrets' is a good phrase! |
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Post by jill on Sept 29, 2010 21:19:14 GMT
I repeat,and I am not proud of it...I have watched this last episode at points during the day and I cannot watch or listen to Lol and Micks 'scene'... . Yes, I'm really looking forward to seeing the whole thing back to back with no breaks though. |
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