Criticisms of TIE (SPOILERS! You have been warned)

[GADGE!]

CHEERS FATTAXI SHE (MY TEACHER) ACTUALLY SAID SOMEONE WROTE IT OR SOMTHING
GADGE!

[fattaxi]

No problems mr.ellis

[Companero]

Hey Tony, I've only just come across this thread and thought I'd express my point of view upon the points you've raised. Now, I actually thought THIS IS ENGLAND was about as close to perfect as films get; this isn't some gushing "let's creep to Shane Meadows on his forum" comment – this is a genuine response to a great film by someone who loves film. Taking your points in order:


1. Perhaps too short a time between Shaun bumping into the
skins and being accepted into the group (pre Combo). Gadget
goes straight round his house to invite him out wrecking

To me, this worked; Woody is completely enamoured by Shaun’s feisty, "don't give a f*ck" attitude. Maybe he sees a younger version of himself in Shaun? To me, Shaun’s acceptance into the gang didn’t need any further elaboration.

2. That scene when the skins are walking away from the wall for
no apparent reason

Now this is a little pedantic, right? There are plenty of weird and wonderful shots in Kubrick Scorsese, Tarantino or Brian De Palma’s films (are all obvious examples). Although Shane's films are rooted in gritty realism, he’s still a very visual filmmaker. Filmmaker's use all manner of different devices to achieve a look.

3. Not much explanation of Perry Benson' character. Just seems
to be there

Again, this is quite obvious and Kezz even explained this on a much earlier thread. Benson’s character is socially inept; the kind of guy that doesn't have friends of his own age. He only finds acceptance within a group of much younger people. Benson's character is obviously one that finds it difficult to excel on a social level and would rather blend into the background. His behaviour in the newsagents underlines the reason why he has no friends of his own age; he’s an immature prick.

4. No explanation of why combo saved the other guy from prison.
Other guy seems unlikely to be the prison type

Another element that needs no explanation, IMO. Gang culture thrives upon respect of your peers and no one respects a rat. Had combo grassed Woody up to the old bill, he most certainly would have be ostracised by the gang.

Then again, this is only my opinion.

[Workshed]

OK... here's my two cents.

First, i'm going to have to state that i was a fourteen years old skinhead back in 1983 and my memory of that time is still sharp. The opening salvo of images worked perfectly to conjure the mood of the early 80's as a device to lead us in. Everyone's experience of life or 'being a skin' is different but i felt there were some experiences that were universal to all British kids at that time but missing from the movie. When the caption read 'Last Day of Term' i had hoped for a brilliantly evocative scene at a school disco with all the lads in their black and red Harrington jackets dancing in a circle to 'Can Can', 'Gangsters/Al Capone' or 'Going Underground' (yes, i know it's a Mod tune but that didn't matter back then - it was all about the energy). At our school disco i remember lads in the toilets smoking and dropping pills (usually their mum's sleeping tablets) laced with a can of Gold Label/Special Brew (never cannabis!). 'Last day of term' was one of the most important days on the school calendar but in TIE it felt like the promise of this key moment was snatched away. And where were the arcades..? 'Space Invaders', 'Pacman', pinball machines and - which almost every skin i knew had an addiction to - the obligatory one-armed bandit. Youth clubs (discos)..? The visiting fairground and trying to blag a job for a couple of days from the head gypsy..? Nowhere to be seen in TIE. To me these were the areas to congregate in 1983 and the surprising amount of dreary exterior shots under subways (for the gluesniffers) and council estates (as in some way re-emphasising that we are in 'Thatcher's Britain') began to make me tire of the movies look after a while.

Shane is right in that, a lot of the time, life back then involved meeting strangers but i, thankfully, steered clear of hardcore right-wing idiots. It just felt wrong. At least half the music we listened to was by black guys like Otis Redding, Prince Buster and James Brown. Plus i also liked the indian music that used to be on BBC2 on a Sunday morning. I had many bad experiences being a skin as there always seem to be a few idiots around that were motivated by violence and TIE nailed that aspect. Sometimes you would just end up at some nutters' house and find yourself trapped, scared to leave or draw attention to yourself for fear of being bullied by the resident headcase. I can say emphatically that the character of 'Trevor' (Tim Roth) from 'Made In Britain' repulsed me from the start.

The look and pacing of the film was spot on until - THE THIRD ACT..! It felt way too short and just seemed to end without a true resolution. Maybe in time i'll come to like it but the 'flag in the sea'... very lazy and cliched. The film (and i guess the audience) were crying out for a denoument featuring Shaun and Woody resolving their woes and in this case i think it needed it (if it's there Shane you should put it back in - didn't you have a test screening?). The film fell ten minutes too short - don't ask me why, it just did - and, as a result, i felt cheated with the tacked on ending (with its many shades of Quadrophenias too). I'm not alone in this - the five people i saw it with all felt the same - and when i told my compadres that the original cut was four hours long their initial reaction was that it need to be much longer. One of them said it needed another hour..!

The performances were uniformly good although i think those with comments on accents do have a point and it's something Shane has to address in future (although getting the combination of gang members' personalities right was Shane's main concern and rightly so). That's the reason 'Small Time' and 'Romeo' work so well... the accents aren't sooo pronounced and disparately identifiable as they are in TIE leaving your concentration entirely on the story.

It was clear from the outset that this is a subject very close to Shane's heart and his empathy for the characters (good and bad) is clear throughout the film. He knows every one of them and it shows.

It's too early to say whether 'This Is England' is a classic (from one viewing) but it didn't leave me with the gutteral impact like DMS did - it just left me frustrated knowing that somewhere there could be a cut with a lot more meat on the bone. 97 minutes was way too short a time imho.

Still, the most interesting working class filmmaker since Loach has once again added another worthy film to a list that reeks of thoughtful quality cinema and that's always a good thing because, deep down, we know that Shane Meadows cares.

7/10.

[RydCook]

some interesting opinions there Workshed. I think This Is England is excellent, and it is certainly one of my favourite films. But i'm yet to form a complete opinion on it yet, i'd like to watch it a few more times.

I must admit though, i have to agree on it being too short, i was surprised that it ended when it did, felt like i needed more of an ending, i dunno, but i did feel this. However i did like the ending, felt right... but just too soon i guess.

[Workshed]

ryd22 said:

some interesting opinions there Workshed.

'My two cents'... more like $75 worth (with a voucher)..! Suppose i must be a little passionate about the film.

Sorry if i bored y'all.

[Kezz]

Interesting..

What I will say is that almost everything you'v addressed as what you'de like to have seen in it, were originally scedualled to be there..

(e.g. there was a very detailed school disco scene which was cut,

there was a scene where shaun was re-united with the gang..

there were many detailed 'props, locations, 1983 additions' such as 'space invaders and pacman',
and some of these things made it to the film, which as you saw, really worked well..
but others for whatever reason did not.)

I can't imagine Shane would do stuff without good reason..
I for one, trust that whatever changes/cuts he did make, were in the films best interests.

Kieran..

(As for the Films Length..

shanemeadows said:

And finally, the original cut of the film was a very long time and my contract ties me into making films that aren't a very long time.

[jill]

workshed said:

Maybe in time i'll come to like it but the 'flag in the sea'... very lazy and cliched.

7/10.

Are you joking??? The ending was absolutely perfect. The flag in the sea was a powerful piece of symbolism and Shaun's final long look into camera was terrific. A 'feel good' reunification ending woud not have any thing like the same impact IMO*

The film isn't suppose to be a 1980s nostalgia trip, it tells a particular story pretty much perfectly.

On the smaller 'gripes' (earlier on the thread), I don't get all this authentic accents stuff. I grew up in Nottingham; my best friend came from Halifax and one of our peripheral group was a scouser. The walking away from the wall looked great-nice stylistic shot, but actually I recall lots of long days hanging about leaning against walls. Actual life's always more boring than we like to remember it

*Sideways was an over-rated film IMO, but just think how much better it would have been if it had ended in the burger bar-lonely man with his bottle of vintage vino Sentimental endings are nearly aways a bad idea.